Issue 9800: What exactly is a state list? (uml2-rtf) Source: oose Innovative Informatik GmbH (Mr. Tim Weilkiens, tim.weilkiens(at)oose.de) Nature: Uncategorized Issue Severity: Summary: The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: The special case of the transition from the junction having a history as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another notation without state list? I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide such an example in the spec. Resolution: Revised Text: Actions taken: May 30, 2006: received issue Discussion: End of Annotations:===== ubject: What exactly is a state list? Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:21:56 +0200 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What exactly is a state list? Thread-Index: AcaDsVmOV0KjZZkyRBelTQ+pauLtYw== From: "Tim Weilkiens" To: The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: The special case of the transition from the junction having a history as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another notation without state list? I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide such an example in the spec. Thanks, Tim --- Tim Weilkiens, E-Mail tim.weilkiens@oose.de, Consultant, Instructor OMG Representative, INCOSE member oose Innovative Informatik GmbH, Hamburg Internet http://www.oose.de To: "Tim Weilkiens" Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org Subject: Re: What exactly is a state list? X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1CF1 March 04, 2003 From: Branislav Selic Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:37:09 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D25ML01/25/M/IBM(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 05/30/2006 09:37:14, Serialize complete at 05/30/2006 09:37:14 Tim > The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: > > The special case of the transition from the junction having a history as > target may optionally be presented as the target > being the state list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for > examples. Actually, this is not the definition of state list but simply one example of its usage -- and not a very good one at that. State lists come from SDL and provide a facility that is similar in intent to group transitions -- except that the states in the list can be an arbitrary subset of states in the state machine. It is simply a shorthand way of specifying equivalent incoming or outgoing transitions for each of the states in the list. > I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction and > no history state. Can someone > provide fig. 15.27 in another notation without state list? The cited figures certainly do not capture the example at all. Figures 15.27 and 15.28 are simply examples of how state lists can be used. > I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide such > an example in the spec. Actually, my suggestion is to remove the sentence altogether, since it is not a good way of using state lists. The problem is that state lists require each state to be named explicitly whereas history does it implicitly. Thus, when a new state is added to the system, the state list would not have to be extended. In general, I don't think state lists are all that useful, since most practical cases are covered by group transitions. State lists were introduced in SDL which did not have a hierarchical state concept. While they are not quite equivalent, the difference in practical terms does not seem to matter much. However, I can already hear Thomas Weigert's indignant reply to my arguments above Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:29:09 +0200 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What exactly is a state list? Thread-Index: AcaD7nfWv6vLzkyoQpujfbttv8DxXgANjI+Q From: "Tim Weilkiens" To: "Branislav Selic" Cc: Bran, Thanks for your answer. That makes things much clearer for me. If I understand it correctly, the attached PDF shows an alternative notation of Figure 15.27, right? Tim --- Tim Weilkiens, E-Mail tim.weilkiens@oose.de, Consultant, Instructor OMG Representative, INCOSE member oose Innovative Informatik GmbH, Hamburg Internet http://www.oose.de > -----Original Message----- > From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:37 PM > To: Tim Weilkiens > Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org > Subject: Re: What exactly is a state list? > > > Tim > > > The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: > > > > The special case of the transition from the junction having > a history > > as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state > > list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. > > Actually, this is not the definition of state list but simply > one example of its usage -- and not a very good one at that. > > State lists come from SDL and provide a facility that is > similar in intent to group transitions -- except that the > states in the list can be an arbitrary subset of states in > the state machine. It is simply a shorthand way of specifying > equivalent incoming or outgoing transitions for each of the > states in the list. > > > I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction > > and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another > > notation without state list? > > The cited figures certainly do not capture the example at > all. Figures 15.27 and 15.28 are simply examples of how state > lists can be used. > > > I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide > > such an example in the spec. > > Actually, my suggestion is to remove the sentence altogether, > since it is not a good way of using state lists. The problem > is that state lists require each state to be named explicitly > whereas history does it implicitly. Thus, when a new state is > added to the system, the state list would not have to be extended. > > In general, I don't think state lists are all that useful, > since most practical cases are covered by group transitions. > State lists were introduced in SDL which did not have a > hierarchical state concept. While they are not quite > equivalent, the difference in practical terms does not seem > to matter much. > > However, I can already hear Thomas Weigert's indignant reply > to my arguments above > > Cheers...Bran > statelist.pdf To: "Tim Weilkiens" Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1CF1 March 04, 2003 From: Branislav Selic Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:20:40 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D25ML01/25/M/IBM(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 05/31/2006 17:20:42, Serialize complete at 05/31/2006 17:20:42 Tim, Not quite. The proper interpretation of fig. 15.27 is the following: Bran Selic IBM Distinguished Engineer IBM Rational Software 770 Palladium Drive Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2V 1C8 ph.: (613) 591-7915 fax: (613) 599-3912 e-mail: bselic@ca.ibm.com "Tim Weilkiens" 05/31/2006 03:29 PM To Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA cc Subject RE: What exactly is a state list? Bran, Thanks for your answer. That makes things much clearer for me. If I understand it correctly, the attached PDF shows an alternative notation of Figure 15.27, right? Tim --- Tim Weilkiens, E-Mail tim.weilkiens@oose.de, Consultant, Instructor OMG Representative, INCOSE member oose Innovative Informatik GmbH, Hamburg Internet http://www.oose.de > -----Original Message----- > From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:37 PM > To: Tim Weilkiens > Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org > Subject: Re: What exactly is a state list? > > > Tim > > > The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: > > > > The special case of the transition from the junction having > a history > > as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state > > list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. > > Actually, this is not the definition of state list but simply > one example of its usage -- and not a very good one at that. > > State lists come from SDL and provide a facility that is > similar in intent to group transitions -- except that the > states in the list can be an arbitrary subset of states in > the state machine. It is simply a shorthand way of specifying > equivalent incoming or outgoing transitions for each of the > states in the list. > > > I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction > > and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another > > notation without state list? > > The cited figures certainly do not capture the example at > all. Figures 15.27 and 15.28 are simply examples of how state > lists can be used. > > > I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide > > such an example in the spec. > > Actually, my suggestion is to remove the sentence altogether, > since it is not a good way of using state lists. The problem > is that state lists require each state to be named explicitly > whereas history does it implicitly. Thus, when a new state is > added to the system, the state list would not have to be extended. > > In general, I don't think state lists are all that useful, > since most practical cases are covered by group transitions. > State lists were introduced in SDL which did not have a > hierarchical state concept. While they are not quite > equivalent, the difference in practical terms does not seem > to matter much. > > However, I can already hear Thomas Weigert's indignant reply > to my arguments above > > Cheers...Bran > [attachment "statelist.pdf" deleted by Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM] To: "Tim Weilkiens" Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1CF1 March 04, 2003 From: Branislav Selic Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:26:21 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D25ML01/25/M/IBM(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/02/2006 09:26:22, Serialize complete at 06/02/2006 09:26:22 No transition from S1 to S2 or the other way around. Clarifications are in order. Or, maybe we should get rid of the darned thing? Cheers, Bran "Tim Weilkiens" 06/02/2006 08:56 AM To Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA cc Subject RE: What exactly is a state list? No transition f from S1 to S2? Or from S2 from S1? I really think we should clarify state list in the spec. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:21 PM To: Tim Weilkiens Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? Tim, Not quite. The proper interpretation of fig. 15.27 is the following: Bran Selic IBM Distinguished Engineer IBM Rational Software 770 Palladium Drive Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2V 1C8 ph.: (613) 591-7915 fax: (613) 599-3912 e-mail: bselic@ca.ibm.com "Tim Weilkiens" 05/31/2006 03:29 PM To Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA cc Subject RE: What exactly is a state list? Bran, Thanks for your answer. That makes things much clearer for me. If I understand it correctly, the attached PDF shows an alternative notation of Figure 15.27, right? Tim --- Tim Weilkiens, E-Mail tim.weilkiens@oose.de, Consultant, Instructor OMG Representative, INCOSE member oose Innovative Informatik GmbH, Hamburg Internet http://www.oose.de > -----Original Message----- > From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:37 PM > To: Tim Weilkiens > Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org > Subject: Re: What exactly is a state list? > > > Tim > > > The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: > > > > The special case of the transition from the junction having > a history > > as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state > > list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. > > Actually, this is not the definition of state list but simply > one example of its usage -- and not a very good one at that. > > State lists come from SDL and provide a facility that is > similar in intent to group transitions -- except that the > states in the list can be an arbitrary subset of states in > the state machine. It is simply a shorthand way of specifying > equivalent incoming or outgoing transitions for each of the > states in the list. > > > I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction > > and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another > > notation without state list? > > The cited figures certainly do not capture the example at > all. Figures 15.27 and 15.28 are simply examples of how state > lists can be used. > > > I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide > > such an example in the spec. > > Actually, my suggestion is to remove the sentence altogether, > since it is not a good way of using state lists. The problem > is that state lists require each state to be named explicitly > whereas history does it implicitly. Thus, when a new state is > added to the system, the state list would not have to be extended. > > In general, I don't think state lists are all that useful, > since most practical cases are covered by group transitions. > State lists were introduced in SDL which did not have a > hierarchical state concept. While they are not quite > equivalent, the difference in practical terms does not seem > to matter much. > > However, I can already hear Thomas Weigert's indignant reply > to my arguments above > > Cheers...Bran > [attachment "statelist.pdf" deleted by Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM] Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:56:35 +0200 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What exactly is a state list? Thread-Index: AcaE+F8gxjIw2BiXQRKhvkiQZM0wZgBS2rew From: "Tim Weilkiens" To: "Branislav Selic" Cc: No transition f from S1 to S2? Or from S2 from S1? I really think we should clarify state list in the spec. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:21 PM To: Tim Weilkiens Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org Subject: RE: What exactly is a state list? Tim, Not quite. The proper interpretation of fig. 15.27 is the following: Bran Selic IBM Distinguished Engineer IBM Rational Software 770 Palladium Drive Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2V 1C8 ph.: (613) 591-7915 fax: (613) 599-3912 e-mail: bselic@ca.ibm.com "Tim Weilkiens" 05/31/2006 03:29 PM To Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA cc Subject RE: What exactly is a state list? Bran, Thanks for your answer. That makes things much clearer for me. If I understand it correctly, the attached PDF shows an alternative notation of Figure 15.27, right? Tim --- Tim Weilkiens, E-Mail tim.weilkiens@oose.de, Consultant, Instructor OMG Representative, INCOSE member oose Innovative Informatik GmbH, Hamburg Internet http://www.oose.de > -----Original Message----- > From: Branislav Selic [mailto:bselic@ca.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:37 PM > To: Tim Weilkiens > Cc: uml2-rtf@omg.org > Subject: Re: What exactly is a state list? > > > Tim > > > The UML2.1 specification defines a state list: > > > > The special case of the transition from the junction having > a history > > as target may optionally be presented as the target being the state > > list state symbol. See Figure 15.27 and Figure 15.28 for examples. > > Actually, this is not the definition of state list but simply > one example of its usage -- and not a very good one at that. > > State lists come from SDL and provide a facility that is > similar in intent to group transitions -- except that the > states in the list can be an arbitrary subset of states in > the state machine. It is simply a shorthand way of specifying > equivalent incoming or outgoing transitions for each of the > states in the list. > > > I couldn't map that definition to the example. There is no junction > > and no history state. Can someone provide fig. 15.27 in another > > notation without state list? > > The cited figures certainly do not capture the example at > all. Figures 15.27 and 15.28 are simply examples of how state > lists can be used. > > > I'm not the first one who's asking this. Probably we should provide > > such an example in the spec. > > Actually, my suggestion is to remove the sentence altogether, > since it is not a good way of using state lists. The problem > is that state lists require each state to be named explicitly > whereas history does it implicitly. Thus, when a new state is > added to the system, the state list would not have to be extended. > > In general, I don't think state lists are all that useful, > since most practical cases are covered by group transitions. > State lists were introduced in SDL which did not have a > hierarchical state concept. While they are not quite > equivalent, the difference in practical terms does not seem > to matter much. > > However, I can already hear Thomas Weigert's indignant reply > to my arguments above > > Cheers...Bran > [attachment "statelist.pdf" deleted by Branislav Selic/Ottawa/IBM] statelist.jpg